Forum bépo

Forum des utilisateurs du bépo

Vous n'êtes pas identifié(e).

#1 29/6/2012 19:12:15

medug
Membres
Inscription : 22/12/2010
Messages : 42
Site Web

Comparateurs de disposition

Pour voir comment se comporte vos dispositions personnalisées, il existe des outils pour les comparer.
N'hésitez pas à en parler dans ce document.

*Keyboard Layout Analyzer
Probablement le plus complet, le plus graphique et le plus ergonomique.Toutes les toutes sont interchangeables. Il précharge les dispositions anglophones de base (Dvorak us/ Colemak/ Capewell)
Il permet de choisir son corpus et copier sa disposition pour la partager ce qui est un gain de temps.
Inconvénient, il est fait pour un clavier 104 touches, et la gestion des signes diacritiques n'est pas clair.

Pour gagner du temps:
La disposition AZERTY

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La disposition BÉPO

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La disposition DVORAK FR

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La disposition BVOFRAK V1.0 (Français-anglais)

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La disposition BVOFRAK EN V0.5 (spécial anglais)

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* Test de Andong (Dvorak Us orienté Développeur)
Assez complet, graphique et mais assez peu ergonomique. La plupart des touches sont interchangeables.
Il précharge les dispositions anglophones de base (Dvorak us/ Colemak/ Workman / Maltron)
Il permet de choisir son corpus et copier sa disposition pour la partager ce qui est un gain de temps.
Inconvénient, il est fait pour un clavier 104 touches, la gestion des signes diacritiques n'est pas clair et le corpus est limité à 50000 caractères



* Comparateur bépo
http://tomestla.info/bepo/
Un peu viellissant par rapport au capacité actuelle mais toujours pratique pour comparer avec l'Azerty
Dispositions figées Bépo/Azerty/Dvorak FR/Dvorak us/



Vous en connaissez d'autres?


BvoFRak : la disposition qui vous donne 1 coup 2 main passe en version 1 béta.

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#2 2/7/2012 10:31:24

LeBret
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Messages : 203

Re : Comparateurs de disposition

Très intéressant. Cela pourrait faire l’objet d’une page dans le wiki.


Un clavier est plus personnel qu’une brosse à dent.

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#3 9/7/2012 22:47:53

cedl
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Lieu : grenoble
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Messages : 6

Re : Comparateurs de disposition

"Keyboard Layout Analyzer" est un outil très intéressant, par contre il ne prend pas en charge l'utilisation des touches mortes pour composer les accents. Ce qui peux fausser les résultats dans certaines configuration, notamment pour le français.

Ma configuration personnalisée utilise notamment l'accent grave mort pour composer le è, à et ù (et accessoirement le ç en personnalisant XCompose). Du coup j'ai utilisé une petite astuce : j'ai remplacé les è par des `e, etc… dans mes textes de test.  Petit inconvénient : du coup on ne peux pas comparer directement deux configurations qui n'utilisent pas les mêmes méthodes pour créer les signes accentués.

Ma configuration clavier wéop

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Dernière modification par cedl (10/7/2012 01:28:55)

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#4 15/7/2012 09:25:21

Robipo
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Inscription : 15/11/2009
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Re : Comparateurs de disposition

Je suis en train de développer un comparateur de disposition qui permet d'intégrer n'importe quel clavier (j'ai mit le TMx et le TECK déjà)
Version en dév : http://robiserver.ath.cx/clavier/ (uniquement disponible quand mon PC est allumé)
Version permanente : http://synaphis.free.fr/clavier/ (Je vais essayer de la garder le plus à jour possible)

Au passage : Difficile de faire mieux que ta dispo BvoFRak-TE (: j'ai réussi au niveau de la distance, mais pas pour les roulements et digrammes à un doigt.

Suggestions et critiques constructives apprécié.

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#5 15/7/2012 13:00:24

soli
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Inscription : 7/1/2012
Messages : 20

Re : Comparateurs de disposition

Sympa, mais je suis un peu surpris du corpus de « programmation » qui me semble tout sauf représentatif (beaucoup de langages exotiques, programme très court, commentaires longs). Existe-t-il un corpus basé sur github.com ou quelque chose comme ça ? Ce serait plus raisonnable de mon point de vue.

[par exemple je me demande sur quoi est construit http://www.mahdiyusuf.com/post/99470021 … syntaxes-1 ]

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#6 16/7/2012 02:41:40

Robipo
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Re : Comparateurs de disposition

J’ai pris celui de johnix du SVN bépo, si t’as un meilleur corpus, je suis preneur. (y a que la version LISP dispo sur ton lien j’ai l’impression)
À la limite, ça peut se faire en téléchargeant à la main des projets open source mais bon le code est répartit sur plein de fichiers donc pas super pratique à rassembler.

Dernière modification par Robipo (16/7/2012 02:46:39)

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#7 16/7/2012 12:00:28

soli
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Re : Comparateurs de disposition

Disons que, s'il y a une demande, ce ne sera pas beaucoup de boulot de construire un corpus à partir de https://github.com/repositories par exemple [même si certains de mes langages favoris n'y figurent pas, ça reste plus proche de mon expérience que le multi-hello-world].
Si demande il y a, tu préfères un fichier unique pour tout le corpus ?

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#8 16/7/2012 12:57:19

Robipo
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Re : Comparateurs de disposition

Non je pense que ce serait mieux un fichier par genre de langage. Je pense par la suite permettre à l'utilisateur de grouper lui-même les corpus avec des ratios. genre FR80% EN10% POO10%
Faudrait donc un corpus pour les langages POO ici par exemple.
On pourrait également imaginer un corpus balise (html/xml) etc…

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#9 18/7/2012 15:36:07

medug
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Re : Comparateurs de disposition

WOUAH!!! Robipo, super ton comparateur!!! Bravo pour le travail! Si c'est un début c'est très très prometteur.

¤ Pratique et configurable même si l'ergonomie n'est pas encore parfaite.
Je n'ai pas trouvé comment supprimer une disposition à la fois par exemple, plutôt que recommencer depuis le début.

¤ Les graphiques sont lisibles et interactifs.
Il faut cependant toujours choisir un bon vieux AZERTY ou QWERTY pour mettre en perspective les différences, sinon les écarts paraissent énormes entre les dispositions améliorées alors que ce n'est en général que quelque pour-cent.
Bon pour la visualisation des fréquences en couleur, je suis pas convaincu. Un dégradé de rouge ou autre suffirait, non ?

¤ Le seul à montrer les roulements négatifs et un des rares à montrer l'utilisation consécutive de la même main.
Pourquoi ne pas montrer les positifs aussi? smile


D'autres petites questions et remarques:
La prise en compte des touches Entrée, majuscule, effacer, alt gr ne semble pas être prise en compte? Cela compte beaucoup surtout pour le petit doigt droit en clavier standard et pour l'index pour les autres (un des comparateurs permet de simuler un taux de correction paramétrable genre 4% d'erreur de frappe.) On verrait par exemple qu'intervertir Ver maj et Effacer est sacrément bénéfique.

Il n'y a pas de visualisations de la répartition d'utilisation des mains et de la distance par main ou doigt. Quelle serait la méthode de gestion des pouces.

Un petit graphique sur l'utilisation des lignes ne serait pas de refus non plus.

Il manque le ê dans ta prise en compte des lettres c'est dommage et c'est défavorable au Bépo sur la distance.

Quel est la taille maximum du corpus utilisable?

Mettras-tu ton code à disposition de la communauté?

Bon courage pour la suite et encore chapeau!
En espérant ne pas avoir été trop critique (dans le sens péjoratif).

[Mode auto satisfaction = On]
Je vois que le Bvofrak est pas mauvais et qu'il a fait des petits le Robiteck smile
[Mode auto satisfaction = Off]

Dernière modification par medug (18/7/2012 15:49:21)


BvoFRak : la disposition qui vous donne 1 coup 2 main passe en version 1 béta.

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#10 19/7/2012 00:45:37

A2
Admin
Inscription : 29/10/2009
Messages : 138

Re : Comparateurs de disposition

Je découvre ton super boulot. Je rajoute une couche après celle de Medug avec quelques petites remarques :
* aucun layout ni diagramme ne s'affichent sous IE9 (il faudrait au moins avertir l'utilisateur si c'est volontaire) ;
* sur Opéra et IE la fenêtre textuelle ne fait que deux lignes de haut (pas très pratique) ;
* s'adapter à l'affichage, actuellement en 100 % j'ai besoin de scroller en lattéral (c'est vraiment chiant) ;
* le message conseils/suggestions passe en partie sous les layouts ;
* la répartition/charge des mains manque cruellement comme le demande Medug ;
* un groupement des layouts par « type » plutôt qu'alphabétique me semble préférable : pour la liste actuelle je dirais alphabétique, français, anglais, TECK-spécifique ;
* s/Éffacer/Effacer ;
* s/colorer/colorier ;
* s/dispo/disposition (parce qu’y a d’la place) ;
* essayer de légender un peu les diagrammes (« roul extérieur » n’est probablement pas explicite pour tout l'monde) ;
* revoir un minimum la typographie de la partie == Stats == (ça pique un peu ! y manque pas mal d’espaces)
* mettre un lien vers cet outil à côté du dactylotest en haut du wiki, l'héberger avec le reste du projet et poser les sources sur le dépôt SVN que tout l'monde puisse l'améliorer ;
* faire une page sur le wiki pour en décrire le fonctionnement, tenir d’éventuels bugs/todo lists et avoir une page de discussion spécifique, à défaut au moins lister l’outil sur la page consacrée aux outils du projet.

[mode o< rulez]
J’vois que bépodvorak a fait plein de petits !
[/o< o<]

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#11 20/7/2012 14:19:00

Robipo
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Inscription : 15/11/2009
Messages : 80

Re : Comparateurs de disposition

Merci pour vos remarques et suggestion ! (:
J'ai fais une page sur le wiki http://www.bepo.fr/wiki/WebKLC
N'hésitez pas à y retourner et me dire si les changements vont bien.

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#12 28/7/2012 17:27:04

soli
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Inscription : 7/1/2012
Messages : 20

Re : Comparateurs de disposition

Robipo a écrit :

Non je pense que ce serait mieux un fichier par genre de langage. Je pense par la suite permettre à l'utilisateur de grouper lui-même les corpus avec des ratios. genre FR80% EN10% POO10%
Faudrait donc un corpus pour les langages POO ici par exemple.
On pourrait également imaginer un corpus balise (html/xml) etc…

Bon, j'ai un peu attendu pour m'y mettre, puis je suis parti en vacances et je repars ce soir (oui, je sais, trop dûuuure la vie !), mais entre temps j'ai quand même torché quelque chose, vu que ça semble être une demande récurrente de prendre correctement en compte la programmation.

Donc, à l'aide d'un script python (source sur Github) j'ai compilé un corpus d'un peu plus de 175 megs (désolé) à partir des 25 projets les plus en vue sur Github, et classé* par langage de programmation (soit une cinquantaine de fichiers de taille très inégale).

Le résultat est téléchargable .

Pour un tri de plus haut niveau (langages OO, fonctionnels, etc.) je n'ai rien fait, mais ça n'est pas très compliqué à rajouter, de même qu'on peut moduler la source ou la taille du corpus si besoin.

Voili voilou…

*: le classement est approximatif et j'ai notamment déjà détecté des erreurs, mais bon, on va dire que c'est négligeable.

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